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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Late last night driving back to northern Ohio from WV about 40 minutes from home, my left front Steeda braided stainless steel brake line busted. Sprayed brake fluid all over the wheel, wheel well, outer fender, tire, bottom of the mirror, everywhere. Made it home on what was left of the brakes, using the transmission downshifts and taking advantage of very light late night traffic. Cleaned it off as best as I could last night, but this morning after a thorough cleaning discovered the brake fluid has ruined the wheel finish. Ordered new lines from Steeda today and now it’s sitting and waiting. What a kick in the shorts. Installed the Steeda lines at 89k, now at 132k. I really noticed a big improvement in braking and pedal feel after installation but this is not a ringing endorsement for durability.
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Unless you're pulling the line in that photo to show the damage, I can tell you why it broke.

How's the fender paint?
 

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I was thinking the same thing, looks like it's to short and got pulled to the side which is a big no. I'm also gonna say I don't understand the need for a after market brake hose unless were talking a lifted truck, I have yet to see a OEM one fail unless it was due to collision or just really old. I have how ever run into lines that had damage internally and caused the caliper to drag, When ever I'm doing brakes, I never have the caliper hanging by the brake hose, good way to screw it up internally. I'll set it on a block of wood out of the way till I need to put it back on the knuckle.
 
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Honest question, why replace something like a break line with an aftermarket part? Surely they can't claim much "performance improvement" over factory, on a major safety-related component like that
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
To answer all the questions:
  • I replaced them mostly for looks but also from positive experience with lifted trucks I’ve built in the past. The brake pedal feel, especially coming down hard from 110mph to 15mph at the track, is noticeably better.
  • I never hang my brake calipers from the hoses.
  • No, I’m not pulling it back. They are definitely not too short as made. I’m assuming the reason it suddenly failed was that something must have gotten up in the wheel well at some recent point and bent the bracket back and I didn’t notice it behind the knuckle back there. I looked at pics from my caliper paint job and it was not in that position at that time. I go “off road” a lot, and I’ve had rocks the size of golf balls get up inside the upper A-arm before.
  • The fender, door, and mirror paint is exhibiting some barely visible, “ghost” spots that can only be seen from certain angles. It’s not catastrophic but definitely did damage. Lucky I had a cheap-o “ceramic” coating on it.
 

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I was thinking the same thing, looks like it's to short and got pulled to the side which is a big no. I'm also gonna say I don't understand the need for a after market brake hose unless were talking a lifted truck, I have yet to see a OEM one fail unless it was due to collision or just really old. I have how ever run into lines that had damage internally and caused the caliper to drag, When ever I'm doing brakes, I never have the caliper hanging by the brake hose, good way to screw it up internally. I'll set it on a block of wood out of the way till I need to put it back on the knuckle.
Honest question, why replace something like a break line with an aftermarket part? Surely they can't claim much "performance improvement" over factory, on a major safety-related component like that
Hi gang. While I personally would not go through the trouble to replace factory brake lines, braided/stainless steel brake lines can offer some improved performance (when they don't break😳), especially for high performance driving.

Factory synthetic construction brake lines have some give to them when internal pressure builds during brake application. Some owners feel this can result in ever so slightly "dulled" brake feel and performance. For a very loose/extreme analogy...Think of blowing into a balloon, it expands. Now blow into a steel water bottle. It will not expand.
A synthetic brake line will have a minute/tiny bit of expansion under hydraulic pressure. Braided stainless steel lines will have far less to none.

Is this something to worry about for 99% of drivers? No, not at all. And I would not bother to make that modification to a vehicle of my own. But for high performance driving and for some owners, they like the modification and what the heck, I respect their right to do so.

On a related note: This is not the first time I have heard of issues with the Steeda stainless steel brake lines being too short and causing problems.

Good luck.
 

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I'm not 100% convinced the braided lines have a noticeable difference. They both have a pretty hard inner liner which is what should contain the pressure. The steel wrap would have to be extremely tight around the inner liner to offer any kind of help in that regard, and I just don't think it's tight enough to do that. The rubber and the braided steel sheathing is just there to protect the inner liner. To me, logically thinking, the only time the steel braided line would be less elastic would be at extreme temps causing the the inner liner to get soft and expand to the point that the steel sheath is containing the pressure.

The people that sell braided steel lines want you to think the rubber is what holds the pressure, and steel is way less stretchy than rubber. They claim the rubber lines expand a bit before you get full pressure, which makes no sense to me.

Lets think about this. The hydraulic pressure in a brake system can get up to 1500psi in a panic braking situation in some cars (I don't know if our abs will let it get that high). That rubber around those lines is not gonna stand a snowballs chance in Arizona of holding back that kind of pressure. It's the inner liner that does the work. Most braking is done at 300-600psi. If the line is expanding at that pressure, what hope does it have when you double the pressure?

I think a lot of the perceived performance gain is from replacing old, worn out lines that may very well be pretty mushy, but I think the same gain would be felt if you simply installed new rubber lines. I believe the biggest benefit is heat dissipation and maybe a little better puncture/cut resistance. I've seen claims that braided lines supposedly last longer because the rubber breaks down, but again, the rubber isn't what is holding the pressure, the inner liner is, which you would think would also break down in the braided lines.

I dunno.... I'm just gonna have to do some testing to see this supposed "expansion" of the rubber lines.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
@BOT_ROCKET everything you say makes sense. Everyone’s entitled to their opinions and skepticism. But all I can say is that I can feel a difference, for whatever reasons. They look good too (although you have to look for them to see them).
 

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@BOT_ROCKET everything you say makes sense. Everyone’s entitled to their opinions and skepticism. But all I can say is that I can feel a difference, for whatever reasons. They look good too (although you have to look for them to see them).
Yeah, I'm not saying there isn't a difference, because there's 100% chance that there's more to it than what I know or something I'm not considering. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me based on what I do know, and I'm really tempted to figure out a way to test my skepticism. One thing I do know is that if the rubber in your rubber brake lines is the only thing containing the hydraulic pressure, you'd better call an uber. Lol.
 

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This brake line failure occurring in very light traffic, this is something to be thankful for; it could have been a lot worse.
 
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I'm not 100% convinced the braided lines have a noticeable difference. They both have a pretty hard inner liner which is what should contain the pressure. The steel wrap would have to be extremely tight around the inner liner to offer any kind of help in that regard, and I just don't think it's tight enough to do that. The rubber and the braided steel sheathing is just there to protect the inner liner. To me, logically thinking, the only time the steel braided line would be less elastic would be at extreme temps causing the the inner liner to get soft and expand to the point that the steel sheath is containing the pressure.

The people that sell braided steel lines want you to think the rubber is what holds the pressure, and steel is way less stretchy than rubber. They claim the rubber lines expand a bit before you get full pressure, which makes no sense to me.

Lets think about this. The hydraulic pressure in a brake system can get up to 1500psi in a panic braking situation in some cars (I don't know if our abs will let it get that high). That rubber around those lines is not gonna stand a snowballs chance in Arizona of holding back that kind of pressure. It's the inner liner that does the work. Most braking is done at 300-600psi. If the line is expanding at that pressure, what hope does it have when you double the pressure?

I think a lot of the perceived performance gain is from replacing old, worn out lines that may very well be pretty mushy, but I think the same gain would be felt if you simply installed new rubber lines. I believe the biggest benefit is heat dissipation and maybe a little better puncture/cut resistance. I've seen claims that braided lines supposedly last longer because the rubber breaks down, but again, the rubber isn't what is holding the pressure, the inner liner is, which you would think would also break down in the braided lines.

I dunno.... I'm just gonna have to do some testing to see this supposed "expansion" of the rubber lines.
Yeah, I'm not saying there isn't a difference, because there's 100% chance that there's more to it than what I know or something I'm not considering. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me based on what I do know, and I'm really tempted to figure out a way to test my skepticism. One thing I do know is that if the rubber in your rubber brake lines is the only thing containing the hydraulic pressure, you'd better call an uber. Lol.
Hi BOT. You don't need to bother doing much testing. It has been tested and verified by experts many times already. All you need to do is Google "Braided brake lines versus rubber brake lines" for a plethora of results: braided brake lines versus rubber brake lines - Google Search

You will then find many articles such as this: Rubber Brake Lines vs. Stainless Steel Brake Lines

And many more. Don't take the word of me or anyone else. Just Google.

As I stated, I would not do it and think it is a waste of time for a street car. But the fact that I would not do it does not change the fact that there can be definite improvements in brake feel and performance. Does a street car need it? No, of course not. But performance cars and those used for racing can see definite improvements in braking performance, both in the short term and long term.
So for some owners, just the improved brake feel (no matter how insignificant to us) and the possibility of stopping a few feet shorter from high speed makes the decision easy.

Good luck.
 

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I'm a fan of braided SS lines. But, that is mainly for my motorcycles. The lines from the factories that are installed on modern cars are much better than say, 20-30 years ago.
I seriously doubt that if I replaced the lines on my '19 GT350 there would be a measureable difference. However, I may still do it...
 

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Hi BOT. You don't need to bother doing much testing. It has been tested and verified by experts many times already. All you need to do is Google "Braided brake lines versus rubber brake lines" for a plethora of results: braided brake lines versus rubber brake lines - Google Search

You will then find many articles such as this: Rubber Brake Lines vs. Stainless Steel Brake Lines

And many more. Don't take the word of me or anyone else. Just Google.

As I stated, I would not do it and think it is a waste of time for a street car. But the fact that I would not do it does not change the fact that there can be definite improvements in brake feel and performance. Does a street car need it? No, of course not. But performance cars and those used for racing can see definite improvements in braking performance, both in the short term and long term.
So for some owners, just the improved brake feel (no matter how insignificant to us) and the possibility of stopping a few feet shorter from high speed makes the decision easy.

Good luck.
I've googled it, and as I said, there are a ton of places that say there's a difference. However, there are also places that say a braided line offers no improvement over NEW rubber lines. The problem isn't that I can't find claims. The problem is that I haven't seen the actual testing to validate the claims so I know which claims to believe. I've seen claims that braided steel lines will last the life of the vehicle, and I've seen claims that the steel in the braided lines will actually abrade the inner liner causing a shorter service life than rubber.

You will never catch me taking the word of someone that stands to make a profit off me taking their word.

One thing I've learned so far is that the inner liner is NOT what contains the pressure, and the braided layer is in fact what does that. The braided layer in a rubber hose is usually kevlar, which as we all know is incredibly strong as well. I've also learned that there are several ways each type is made, so there may be some really good rubber hoses that expand less than some cheaper steel hoses.

Either way, the important thing seems to be to take care of your brake hoses, and replace them if they are worn or damaged.

BTW, the lines I just put on my Fox are braided steel, so don't go thinking I'm some braided steel hose hater.
 
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I've googled it, and as I said, there are a ton of places that say there's a difference. However, there are also places that say a braided line offers no improvement over NEW rubber lines. The problem isn't that I can't find claims. The problem is that I haven't seen the actual testing to validate the claims so I know which claims to believe. I've seen claims that braided steel lines will last the life of the vehicle, and I've seen claims that the steel in the braided lines will actually abrade the inner liner causing a shorter service life than rubber.

You will never catch me taking the word of someone that stands to make a profit off me taking their word.

One thing I've learned so far is that the inner liner is NOT what contains the pressure, and the braided layer is in fact what does that. The braided layer in a rubber hose is usually kevlar, which as we all know is incredibly strong as well. I've also learned that there are several ways each type is made, so there may be some really good rubber hoses that expand less than some cheaper steel hoses.

Either way, the important thing seems to be to take care of your brake hoses, and replace them if they are worn or damaged.

BTW, the lines I just put on my Fox are braided steel, so don't go thinking I'm some braided steel hose hater.
Hi BOT. Well, while you may have thought to yourself that "I've googled it, and as I said, there are a ton of places that say there's a difference.", unless I missed it (I read back) you never actually said it until just now. ;)

I understand your point of view. And once again, want to point out it does not matter to me if anyone loves or hates braided stainless steel brake lines. Since I am not trying to sell anyone something, and not trying to convince anyone to install them. And as I previously stated, I personally would never bother to replace factory brake lines with braided stainless steel or any others. I was only providing easily verifiable facts.

And on a related note...I myself do know how to do proper research and differentiate between factual information...and someone trying to sell me something. ;)

But we can certainly agree on the fact that the braided stainless steel brake line companies will certainly never get your money or mine. Oh wait...they did get your money for the braided steel lines on your Fox.

Oh well...they will never get my money! Good luck! 🍻
 

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Hi BOT. Well, while you may have thought to yourself that "I've googled it, and as I said, there are a ton of places that say there's a difference.", unless I missed it (I read back) you never actually said it until just now. ;)

I understand your point of view. And once again, want to point out it does not matter to me if anyone loves or hates braided stainless steel brake lines. Since I am not trying to sell anyone something, and not trying to convince anyone to install them. And as I previously stated, I personally would never bother to replace factory brake lines with braided stainless steel or any others. I was only providing easily verifiable facts.

And on a related note...I myself do know how to do proper research and differentiate between factual information...and someone trying to sell me something. ;)

But we can certainly agree on the fact that the braided stainless steel brake line companies will certainly never get your money or mine. Oh wait...they did get your money for the braided steel lines on your Fox.

Oh well...they will never get my money! Good luck! 🍻
I didn't say I googled it, but I did say places claim there's a difference. That's all I meant.

I also have some decent googling skills of my own, and I've seen pretty reputable sources making claims for both sides of the debate, but I haven't found any actual testing yet. Articles like the one you posted from American Muscle hold little to no value to me because the author of that article was most likely just regurgitating the same **** you and I have been seeing ourselves.

Here's some other google results I've come across.

"There’s no real advantage to putting braided lines on a brand new bike that has rubber lines – it’s as they start to wear over time that the difference will be felt... Compared to a set of old rubber hoses, braided lines should give a noticeable improvement in braking force. But on a brand-new bike, the ‘feel’ of the brakes is far more dictated by the design of the calipers, the pad material and the ratio between the size of the master cylinder and the brake calipers’ pistons."

There are some steel lines that are just the inner liner and a steel braid outer layer and maybe a pvc coating. Then there are some that are inner liner, kevlar braid mid layer, another bonding layer, then the steel braid, and possibly another outer layer. I would assume that latter is pretty robust. Some rubber hoses are just the inner liner, a nylon braided mid layer, and a rubber outer layer. Then there are some rubber hoses that have a teflon inner liner, kevlar braided layer, a bonding layer, another fabric layer of some sort, and a rubber outer layer. There are many way to make a hose, and I don't think the determining factor is whether or not steel happens to be one of the layers.

Also, I only got steel lines for the front because the stock rubber hoses didn't look like they would work, and I was kind curious to see if the steel lines would make a noticeable difference. I did get stock SN95 rubber lines for the rear, though.
 

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I didn't say I googled it, but I did say places claim there's a difference. That's all I meant.

I also have some decent googling skills of my own, and I've seen pretty reputable sources making claims for both sides of the debate, but I haven't found any actual testing yet. Articles like the one you posted from American Muscle hold little to no value to me because the author of that article was most likely just regurgitating the same **** you and I have been seeing ourselves.

Here's some other google results I've come across.

"There’s no real advantage to putting braided lines on a brand new bike that has rubber lines – it’s as they start to wear over time that the difference will be felt... Compared to a set of old rubber hoses, braided lines should give a noticeable improvement in braking force. But on a brand-new bike, the ‘feel’ of the brakes is far more dictated by the design of the calipers, the pad material and the ratio between the size of the master cylinder and the brake calipers’ pistons."

There are some steel lines that are just the inner liner and a steel braid outer layer and maybe a pvc coating. Then there are some that are inner liner, kevlar braid mid layer, another bonding layer, then the steel braid, and possibly another outer layer. I would assume that latter is pretty robust. Some rubber hoses are just the inner liner, a nylon braided mid layer, and a rubber outer layer. Then there are some rubber hoses that have a teflon inner liner, kevlar braided layer, a bonding layer, another fabric layer of some sort, and a rubber outer layer. There are many way to make a hose, and I don't think the determining factor is whether or not steel happens to be one of the layers.

Also, I only got steel lines for the front because the stock rubber hoses didn't look like they would work, and I was kind curious to see if the steel lines would make a noticeable difference. I did get stock SN95 rubber lines for the rear, though.
Hi BOT. Oh for the love of...You did say you Googled it. I quoted your post...lol

I don't know what you meant to say, but what you said was "I've googled it, and as I said, there are a ton of places that say there's a difference." lol
So the problem now is that there are "a ton of places that say there is a difference", but you choose to believe otherwise, since "However, there are also places that say a braided line offers no improvement over NEW rubber lines.". And in those cases, they are referring to everyday, on-road driving, not higher performance driving. That is what we call a moving goal post. ;)

Ironically, what we have here is one person (you) who started off telling others that he believes (admittedly without any actual research or proof) that stainless steel brake lines have no benefits, yet has spent time and money to switch a car of his over to stainless steel brake lines.
And another person (me), who has provided links to articles about how stainless steel brake lines do have benefits, limited or otherwise, yet has also clearly and repeatedly stated that I would not spend the time or money to switch a switch them over, nor would I recommend others do so (if I was asked).
However, I also still respect the right of others to do so if the wish to. So after they do some basic research (which I always recommend others do), who should anyone believe?

And as far as proof of the factual evidence, I could link to a 100 or 1,000 articles from professional/expert sources. And they will virtually all state that steel braided brake lines will provide some benefits of one sort or another. Some will say they only offer a little benefit, others will state they offer larger benefits (usually for hard driving/racing applications). And some will say they will provide some benefits, but the benefits are not worth the cost, time and trouble. And I agree with that.

But again, I personally could not care less either way, other than providing the factual information. And the fact that I only linked to one article and you don't want to believe it is immaterial. Ironically, whether you only switched the backs, fronts, or all brake lines (and the r4asons are once again, immaterial)...the fact is that between the two of us, I am the one who says he won't switch to stainless steel braided brake lines, and I am the one who has not spent the money to switch.

And knowing how to properly research (not just Google) is important. At least link to an article about brake lines for cars. Even the article you linked to (which is for motorcycles, which need/utilize far less braking power than cars), states that steel braided brake lines can provide benefits. Just because you do not consider those particular benefits important (for motorcycles...lol) does not change the facts.
And I already know about brake lines, how they are constructed etc. etc.

Also, stating that "Articles like the one you posted from American Muscle hold little to no value to me because the author of that article was most likely just regurgitating the same ** you and I have been seeing ourselves." is a ridiculous statement with no basis of fact. Perhaps you only have seen "**", but if that is the case, you should only speak for yourself. ;)
Just as I would not claim that the motorcycle (not car) article you linked to is "only regurgitating the same ****" you have heard.
No, I did not do that. I simply pointed out the error made in linking to that article, and how a more careful reading of the article actually contradicts what you thought you read anyway, even despite it being about motorcycles instead of cars.

So it would help if you decide whether you can or can not find the proper research about brake lines. First you stated you can not find any research with valid tests, and tried to shoot down a link I provided (about cars) with some faulty reasoning. Then you provide one article (about motorcycles) to try and refute the article I provided (about cars, which is the subject we are taking about).

The truth is, very few vehicle owners will ever switch over to stainless steel brake lines. In fact, I have never had to replace a brake line, on any car I have owned. For any reason, let alone replacing new, perfectly good factory brake lines. So this is a silly discussion.

So at this point, others can use the Google links and articles you and I both linked to, do their own research, and come to their own conclusions. And we can and should simply agree to disagree and move on.

Good luck.

PS- I truly do hope we can agree to disagree and move on. But if not, I am going to bed and will be unavailable until tomorrow. Good luck again BOT. 🍻
 

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Oh for the love of...You did say you Googled it. I quoted your post...lol
Ok, you said...
Well, while you may have thought to yourself that "I've googled it, and as I said, there are a ton of places that say there's a difference.", unless I missed it (I read back) you never actually said it until just now. ;)
I was saying that I had never said that I said I googled it. My statement was that I googled it. My statement was not that I said that I googled it. Your reply seems to indicate that I had said I googled it but did not in fact say that. The statement "I've googled it, and as I said..." does not imply that I said I googled anything. What I say after "and as I said" is the part that talks about what I said. See?

there are also places that say a braided line offers no improvement over NEW rubber lines.". And in those cases, they are referring to everyday, on-road driving, not higher performance driving.
No, they are talking about performance improvements, as in less expansion. They specifically say that braided steel is better (as in more responsive) than OLD rubber, but not so much when compared to NEW rubber lines.

Ironically, what we have here is one person (you) who started off telling others that he believes (admittedly without any actual research or proof) that stainless steel brake lines have no benefits
Not true. I did not say it offers no benifits. In fact, I specifically stated what I thought some of the beifits were.

yet has spent time and money to switch a car of his over to stainless steel brake lines.
I didn't spend any time, and very little money switching. I had to replace the lines no matter what because my old lines would not work with the new brakes, so I had to use an alternative. I was unsure if factory rubber SN95 lines would physically bolt up, but I was fairly confident I could make the more universal round banjo bolts on the steel lines work. My curiosity about their performance was secondary.

And another person (me), who has provided links to articles about how stainless steel brake lines do have benefits
And knowing how to properly research (not just Google) is important. At least link to an article about brake lines for cars. Even the article you linked to (which is for motorcycles, which need/utilize far less braking power than cars), states that steel braided brake lines can provide benefits. Just because you do not consider those particular benefits important (for motorcycles...lol) does not change the facts.
So it would help if you decide whether you can or can not find the proper research about brake lines. First you stated you can not find any research with valid tests, and tried to shoot down a link I provided (about cars) with some faulty reasoning. Then you provide one article (about motorcycles) to try and refute the article I provided (about cars, which is the subject we are taking about).
I didn't post that article as a slam dunk, I win. I posted it as an example of a contradicting point of view to further emphasize the lack of a clear cut answer. It was to show that for every source that CLAIMS one thing, there is a source that CLAIMS another. I also wasn't saying there is no benefit whatsoever, which I assumed had already been established since I had mentioned other benefits earlier. I was referring strictly to their performance benefits.

And as far as proof of the factual evidence, I could link to a 100 or 1,000 articles from professional/expert sources. And they will virtually all state that steel braided brake lines will provide some benefits of one sort or another. Some will say they only offer a little benefit, others will state they offer larger benefits (usually for hard driving/racing applications). And some will say they will provide some benefits, but the benefits are not worth the cost, time and trouble. And I agree with that.
If you can link to any sort of scientific testing that proves a well made steel braided line expands less than a well made rubber line, PLEASE, for all that is holy, do it! That's literally al that I'm asking for. I have absolutely no trouble finding articles for days that lack any sort of proper citations or testing which make claims going both ways about every aspect imaginable. I want to see someone shove 3000psi of hydraulic fluid into each type of line to see how much each one expands, and I want to see a measurable difference. I cannot find that, which is why I want to fill one of each type of hose, hook it to a master cylinder, cap the other end, and see how much lever movement each one allows. I don't want to see, "You can tell this is an Aspen because of the way it is." I can read a phuque load of articles about how the Earth is flat, but I'm not going to believe them just because they said so. Even if Neil DeGrasse Tyson said it, I would say, "Bologna. Show me."


Edit: also, you must be an INTP, too. We tend to piss people off because we argue simply for the sake of arguing. We are notorious for being the Devil's Advocate, even if we don't truly believe in what we're arguing about, but will almost convince ourselves that we do. If so, this could go on for days. o>
 

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Ok, you said...

I was saying that I had never said that I said I googled it. My statement was that I googled it. My statement was not that I said that I googled it. Your reply seems to indicate that I had said I googled it but did not in fact say that. The statement "I've googled it, and as I said..." does not imply that I said I googled anything. What I say after "and as I said" is the part that talks about what I said. See?


No, they are talking about performance improvements, as in less expansion. They specifically say that braided steel is better (as in more responsive) than OLD rubber, but not so much when compared to NEW rubber lines.


Not true. I did not say it offers no benifits. In fact, I specifically stated what I thought some of the beifits were.


I didn't spend any time, and very little money switching. I had to replace the lines no matter what because my old lines would not work with the new brakes, so I had to use an alternative. I was unsure if factory rubber SN95 lines would physically bolt up, but I was fairly confident I could make the more universal round banjo bolts on the steel lines work. My curiosity about their performance was secondary.




I didn't post that article as a slam dunk, I win. I posted it as an example of a contradicting point of view to further emphasize the lack of a clear cut answer. It was to show that for every source that CLAIMS one thing, there is a source that CLAIMS another. I also wasn't saying there is no benefit whatsoever, which I assumed had already been established since I had mentioned other benefits earlier. I was referring strictly to their performance benefits.


If you can link to any sort of scientific testing that proves a well made steel braided line expands less than a well made rubber line, PLEASE, for all that is holy, do it! That's literally al that I'm asking for. I have absolutely no trouble finding articles for days that lack any sort of proper citations or testing which make claims going both ways about every aspect imaginable. I want to see someone shove 3000psi of hydraulic fluid into each type of line to see how much each one expands, and I want to see a measurable difference. I cannot find that, which is why I want to fill one of each type of hose, hook it to a master cylinder, cap the other end, and see how much lever movement each one allows. I don't want to see, "You can tell this is an Aspen because of the way it is." I can read a phuque load of articles about how the Earth is flat, but I'm not going to believe them just because they said so. Even if Neil DeGrasse Tyson said it, I would say, "Bologna. Show me."


Edit: also, you must be an INTP, too. We tend to piss people off because we argue simply for the sake of arguing. We are notorious for being the Devil's Advocate, even if we don't truly believe in what we're arguing about, but will almost convince ourselves that we do. If so, this could go on for days. o>
Hi BOT. Holy "phuque". What the what does this mean? "I was saying that I had never said that I said I googled it. My statement was that I googled it." Yikes...can you please untwist that pretzel logic?
You did not say you Googled it? Here are your two quotes...again... First, you stated "I've googled it, and as I said, there are a ton of places that say there's a difference."
Then you stated "I didn't say I googled it, but I did say places claim there's a difference. That's all I meant." So you clearly stated you Googled it. Then you stated you did not Google it. Now you state "...that I had never said that I said I googled it. My statement was that I googled it.". I get a headache just reading that...lol
So in the end, you said you Googled it, despite now "convincing yourself" you did not. But did. Or did not? I don't know anymore. 😂

And since there is now so much circuitous arguing and projection (and even a bit of an attempt at Internet psychological evaluation...but we'll get back to that later...lol) in your last reply, including denying you stated things which you are quoted as saying (talk about arguing for the sake of arguing), I will simply point out a few major bits of faulty logic. In fact, in one of your replies to a quote of my information, you actually agree with what I stated and somehow still manage to state that what I stated is incorrect. Yikes!
Please try to carefully read my replies, and carefully reread what you have written.

Despite your projection, you actually are the flat earth type. You are the one arguing against all established facts and information by stating it is not "scientific" enough for you. That is exactly what Flat Earthers do.
Your argument above is essentially, "I believe the Earth is flat. Show me evidence the earth is round. Oh...that evidence? 100's of links I can find myself that show the earth is round? No, I don't believe it, not "scientific" enough for me. I prefer others jump through hoops to show me evidence I have seen but do not and will not believe anyway, since it is so easy to dismiss things as not scientific enough. Instead, I will someday fly around the world to prove to myself the earth is round. But until then (which will never happen), I will disbelieve every expert resource, since I can't trust them.".

So we will all await the results of your test flight around the world.

And as to your last Edited statement. Sheeesh...that is quite a bit of projection to state "also, you must be an INTP, too. We tend to piss people off because we argue simply for the sake of arguing. We are notorious for being the Devil's Advocate, even if we don't truly believe in what we're arguing about, but will almost convince ourselves that we do."
As previously stated, that is quite a boatload of...projection...there.

I am quite the opposite of the "Devil's Advocate" type and my replies show that. I present facts, valid links etc. to show others good, verifiable information. Even about a subject like this, where I would never bother to install stainless steel braided brake lines, yet can admit that they do have benefits for those who wish to. Even if those benefits are minimal for everyday use. That is called being able to hold two conflicting viewpoints in a logical manner. And if I debate a position, it is not to piss people off. It is because it can be backed up by facts. Even about something I would never do myself, or bother to recommend. An example of the ability to hold two opposing viewpoints in a logical manner without personal biases or preferences clouding the philosophical subject and discussion. Give it a try sometime.

So you may want to skip the Internet psychological evaluations. That one obviously did not work very well. ;)

So about that projection. Now that we know you feel you are the "INTP" type, who tends to piss people off, is notorious for being the Devils Advocate, and openly states you will argue a point you do not truly believe in but will almost convince yourself that you do...Everyone can read the links and decide for themselves what the facts are. They can do their own research, read the links and information provided, or believe what you have convinced yourself you believe in.

So let's stick to the subject and the facts. You and I and virtually all automotive experts agree there are performance benefits provided by stainless steel brake lines (Yes, you do eventually state there are benefits). The question is simply whether the benefits are worth it for the owners of the average daily driver. I don't think they are, but understand why others will want to install them and their right to. You don't think the benefits are worth it either, yet still installed stainless steel brake lines on one of your cars (whatever the reasons...Do as I say, not as I did), despite also feeling the benefits are minimal. So now stop arguing for the sake of arguing, stop being the Devils Advocate (again, "Do as say, not as I did") and let others read and decide what to do for their own situations.
It will save us wasting time out of our lives we can never get back...lol


No hard feelings and good luck.
 

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Hi BOT. Holy "phuque". What the what does this mean? "I was saying that I had never said that I said I googled it. My statement was that I googled it." Yikes...can you please untwist that pretzel logic?
You did not say you Googled it? Here is the quote...again..."I've googled it, and as I said, there are a ton of places that say there's a difference." You said you Googled despite now "convincing yourself" you did not. 😂
And since there is so much circuitous arguing and projection in your last reply, including denying you stated things which you are quoted as saying (talk about arguing for the sake of arguing), I will simply point out a major bit of faulty logic.

Despite your projection, you actually are the flat earth type. You are the one arguing against all established facts and information by stating it is not "scientific" enough for you. That is exactly what Flat Earthers do.
Your argument above is essentially, "I believe the Earth is flat. Show me evidence the earth is round. Oh...that evidence? 100's of links I can find myself that show the earth is round? No, I don't believe it, not "scientific" enough for me. I prefer others jump through hoops to show me evidence I have seen but do not and will not believe anyway, since it is so easy to dismiss things as not scientific enough. Instead, I will someday fly around the world to prove to myself the earth is round. But until then (which will never happen), I will disbelieve every expert resource, since I can't trust them.".

So we will all await the results of your flight around the world.

And as to your last Edited statement. Sheeesh...that is quite a bit of projection to state "also, you must be an INTP, too. We tend to piss people off because we argue simply for the sake of arguing. We are notorious for being the Devil's Advocate, even if we don't truly believe in what we're arguing about, but will almost convince ourselves that we do."
As previously stated, that is quite a boatload of...projection...there.

I am quite the opposite of the "Devil's Advocate" type and my replies show that. I present facts, valid links etc. to show others good, verifiable information. Even about a subject like this, where I would never bother to install stainless steel braided brake lines, yet can admit that they do have benefits for those who wish to. Even if those benefits are minimal for everyday use. That is called being able to hold two conflicting viewpoints in a logical manner. And if I debate a position, it is not to piss people off. It is because it can be backed up by facts. Even about something I would never do myself, or bother to recommend. An example of the ability to hold two opposing viewpoints in a logical manner without personal biases or preferences clouding the philosophical subject and discussion. Give it a try sometime.

So you may want to skip the Internet psychological evaluations. That one obviously did not work very well. ;)

So about that projection. Now that we know you feel you are the "INTP" type, who tends to piss people off, is notorious for being the Devils Advocate, and openly states you will argue a point you do not truly believe in but will almost convince yourself that you do...Everyone can read the links and decide for themselves what the facts are. They can do their own research, read the links and information provided, or believe what you have convinced yourself you believe in.

No hard feelings and good luck.
Your statement implied that I had said that I googled it PRIOR to me saying it in the comment you quoted. You can quote that same comment all day, but prior to that quoted comment, I had not said it, which is what your comment was implying by the way you worded it.

I'm not arguing a flat earth argument. There is well documented testing, which is easily found, that proves the earth is round. It's not just a bunch of articles saying the Earth is round. If I look for proof that the earth is round, I can find it with ease. I cannot find proof that steel lines expand less than rubber lines. It is not well documented, no matter how many articles say so. Hell, most of the articles even indicate that the rubber lines are only worse off once they have broken down, but again, it's just hearsay without evidence.

Once again, and for the last time; I'm not saying they don't offer better performance. I'm saying I'm not convinced that they do since there is no documented testing that I can find that proves that they do. Just a ton of hearsay (on both sides of the debate).

I've changed my mind. I don't think you are INTP. INTPs seek the truth, and view an argument from every possible angle which is why they are notorious for being the Devil's Advocate. You seem to be arguing just to be stubborn, though, and aren't willing to see things from both sides. Your mind is made up, and that's it. People say it's true, therefore it must be.

Show me proof, and I will concede happily. Some author of an article telling me something "is the way it is because everyone just knows it" is not proof. You seem to be quite proud of your research skills, but have not offered any proof to back your claim. I cannot prove a lack of proof, though. There is no way for me to show a lack of evidentiary testing with measurable results.
 

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Your statement implied that I had said that I googled it PRIOR to me saying it in the comment you quoted. You can quote that same comment all day, but prior to that quoted comment, I had not said it, which is what your comment was implying by the way you worded it.

I'm not arguing a flat earth argument. There is well documented testing, which is easily found, that proves the earth is round. It's not just a bunch of articles saying the Earth is round. If I look for proof that the earth is round, I can find it with ease. I cannot find proof that steel lines expand less than rubber lines. It is not well documented, no matter how many articles say so. Hell, most of the articles even indicate that the rubber lines are only worse off once they have broken down, but again, it's just hearsay without evidence.

Once again, and for the last time; I'm not saying they don't offer better performance. I'm saying I'm not convinced that they do since there is no documented testing that I can find that proves that they do. Just a ton of hearsay (on both sides of the debate).

I've changed my mind. I don't think you are INTP. INTPs seek the truth, and view an argument from every possible angle which is why they are notorious for being the Devil's Advocate. You seem to be arguing just to be stubborn, though, and aren't willing to see things from both sides. Your mind is made up, and that's it. People say it's true, therefore it must be.

Show me proof, and I will concede happily. Some author of an article telling me something "is the way it is because everyone just knows it" is not proof. You seem to be quite proud of your research skills, but have not offered any proof to back your claim. I cannot prove a lack of proof, though. There is no way for me to show a lack of evidentiary testing with measurable results.
Hi BOT. First, you obviously do not understand what I previously stated. So reread it carefully. Yes, I realize you won't.

And now you are resorting to the "I know you are but what am I" defensive offense. I point out how you are arguing just to argue and have even admitted that you do that it in your previous reply, so you now claim that is what I am going. "I know you are, but what am I". Great strategy.
What next, talking about "Yo momma? 😂

Next...You really don't get it. Yes, you are arguing a classic Flat earth argument. Keep asking, no demanding, some very specific type of scientific testing. Asking for your own personal specifics because not having that precise type of unnecessary testing allows you to deny the experts. The proof of this is your above statement "I'm not saying they don't offer better performance. I'm saying I'm not convinced that they do since there is no documented testing that I can find that proves that they do." There is testing, yet you demand specific testing that is not necessary for anyone but you (i.e "3,000 psi..." etc.). Or as you say..."It is not well documented, no matter how many articles say so." LOL

And as I stated in my last reply above, in one case (actually more than one case), you actually quote me, agree with what I stated, yet manage to also state what I stated was incorrect. Go find it. Again, talk about arguing just to argue (or be stubborn).

You make vague references to "seek the truth", yet deny validity to all that does not agree with your beliefs, even though your beliefs are feelings and opinions. I provided links, to articles about cars, not motorcycles...lol... If you can not take the time to read through them, understand and comprehend them, that is an issue you will need to address.

And now, you keep veering into making this personal, instead of dealing with the facts. Your first attempt at dime store, Internet psychological evaluation did not bode well for you. Neither did this one. They show classic signs of projection, since you readily admit you are those types with that behavior. So simply stick to the subject and facts.

And you do not see the irony of your signature: "I am a jack of all, master of none. Whatever topic I'm talking about in this post: it's a topic of which I am NOT an expert. However, my mad googling skillz and loads of "free time" at work make me think I know just about everything. I don't, so take my word with a grain of salt.

I am not an expert, admit it and provide research, information and links. And no one needs to prove it to you. The information and links are here for others to make up their own minds.

Stick to the subject...since your mad Googling skillz don't translate well to Internet psychology which backfires in your face.

Perhaps you need to step back from the personal, then we can reset the conversation, allow others to read and decide and move on.

Good luck.
 
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