Anyone actively monitoring KR/timing? - 2017 Ford Fusion V6 Sport Forum
 4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 64
Anyone actively monitoring KR/timing?

Has anyone ever watched the knock retard/timing advice on there cars during regular driving? When I was tuning with Torrie/Unleashed all I recorded was WOT runs. After I finished tuning the car I finally mounted my SCT where I could see it all the time and I noticed KR would jump up as high as 5.99 during my commute. It’s usually while at highway speeds on slight inclines while holding a constant speed (I use cruise control a lot). It jumps from 0 to 5.99 quickly then clicks back down slowly .5 at a time all the way back down to 0.

So: 5.99, 5.49, 4.99, 4.49, etc.

However, If at any time I accelerate it jumps back into the (-) numbers.

I asked Torrie if that was a bad thing and his response was “not as far as I’m concerned” but I was wondering if anyone else has noticed anything similar.
Hootushead is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 11:07 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hootushead View Post
Has anyone ever watched the knock retard/timing advice on there cars during regular driving? When I was tuning with Torrie/Unleashed all I recorded was WOT runs. After I finished tuning the car I finally mounted my SCT where I could see it all the time and I noticed KR would jump up as high as 5.99 during my commute. It’s usually while at highway speeds on slight inclines while holding a constant speed (I use cruise control a lot). It jumps from 0 to 5.99 quickly then clicks back down slowly .5 at a time all the way back down to 0.

So: 5.99, 5.49, 4.99, 4.49, etc.

However, If at any time I accelerate it jumps back into the (-) numbers.

I asked Torrie if that was a bad thing and his response was “not as far as I’m concerned” but I was wondering if anyone else has noticed anything similar.
And I thought I was the only one that monitored that haha.

Positive KR is never really a good thing, but negative knock is ok. a light load accel will give you negative numbers, which will in turn bring down your OAR.

Knock is something ive been chasing since I got it tuned. I was told it was bad fuel... I changed the spark plugs to the 6510s with .028 gap, no help. Added few gallons of e85 to boost octane, no help.

He has since "taken out some of the advance" but my car still struggles and isnt any faster than stock.

I have noticed the trans likes to keep the TC locked, so you'll see a higher load when you accel, thus more knock
BWood21 is offline  
post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 08:29 AM
Junior Member
 
jdgesmlls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWood21 View Post
And I thought I was the only one that monitored that haha.

Positive KR is never really a good thing, but negative knock is ok. a light load accel will give you negative numbers, which will in turn bring down your OAR.

Knock is something ive been chasing since I got it tuned. I was told it was bad fuel... I changed the spark plugs to the 6510s with .028 gap, no help. Added few gallons of e85 to boost octane, no help.

He has since "taken out some of the advance" but my car still struggles and isnt any faster than stock.

I have noticed the trans likes to keep the TC locked, so you'll see a higher load when you accel, thus more knock
I can't say that I was actively monitoring KR but it was pointed out by Torrie on my data log. Same recommendations, try better fuel (I switched to Shell 93 vPower) and consider changing out the spark plugs. I have new SP-542s in hand and was planning to change them this weekend. It seems I am a few steps behind what you have already done @BWood21 .

Swapping the plugs out doesn't seem too difficult, but I can think of better ways to spend my Saturday. I only have 15K miles on the vehicle, so the plugs seems to be an outside shot at being the issue. It sounds like it didn't change things for you @BWood21 . Torrie also modified my tune and removed some advance.

Any pointers as it seems I am heading down a similar road?
jdgesmlls is online now  
 
post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-28-2019, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 64
When I initially ordered the tuner from Torrie, I opted to buy new plugs from him as well. At the time I didn’t realize they were the same stock 542 plugs already installed. The plugs in the car only had around 2-3k miles on them since the engine was replaced by ford before I purchased it. I planned on putting in the new plugs anyway since I had to pull the old ones to check the gap. I pulled the front bank and they all were at .28-.29ish and looked clean. So, I didn’t even mess with the PITA back bank.
Fast forward through 7 different tune revisions and I was still dealing with more knock than typical for our cars. Even with octane boosters. So, we decided to try replacing the plugs.
Interestingly after just 3 tanks of Lucas Octane Booster the plugs were coated in the brown/orange deposits associated with some octane additives. Torrie said it may have affected performance but probably not.
I installed the new plugs gapped at a tight .28. I also installed a larger FMIC at the same time. The end result was less knock but still more than expected on a 93 tune.

I’m still running E30 now and my KR is still jumping up to +5.99 under normal acceleration but drops down the into the (-) numbers as soon as I give it more throttle.

Im going to try going back to my 91 tune after this tank of E30, I may even try stock tune with 91 gas, to see what KR actually does with those tunes/octane. I wish I could find good 93 octane around KC.
Hootushead is offline  
post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2019, 12:05 AM
Junior Member
 
jdgesmlls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hootushead View Post
When I initially ordered the tuner from Torrie, I opted to buy new plugs from him as well. At the time I didn’t realize they were the same stock 542 plugs already installed. The plugs in the car only had around 2-3k miles on them since the engine was replaced by ford before I purchased it. I planned on putting in the new plugs anyway since I had to pull the old ones to check the gap. I pulled the front bank and they all were at .28-.29ish and looked clean. So, I didn’t even mess with the PITA back bank.
Fast forward through 7 different tune revisions and I was still dealing with more knock than typical for our cars. Even with octane boosters. So, we decided to try replacing the plugs.
Interestingly after just 3 tanks of Lucas Octane Booster the plugs were coated in the brown/orange deposits associated with some octane additives. Torrie said it may have affected performance but probably not.
I installed the new plugs gapped at a tight .28. I also installed a larger FMIC at the same time. The end result was less knock but still more than expected on a 93 tune.

I’m still running E30 now and my KR is still jumping up to +5.99 under normal acceleration but drops down the into the (-) numbers as soon as I give it more throttle.

Im going to try going back to my 91 tune after this tank of E30, I may even try stock tune with 91 gas, to see what KR actually does with those tunes/octane. I wish I could find good 93 octane around KC.
Thanks for the feedback and details on what you have done. So if I consider my experience thus far, reports from @BWood21 , and your feedback... I don't see definitive results on replacing the plugs. In good control testing practice, you change 1 variable and retest. You changed two variables at once (plugs and FMIC) and likely can't determine the degree of which one (or both) helped reduce KR. The FMIC upgrade seems to be huge for performance gains, wish I had considered this originally.

Given the reports of 3 different vehicles having higher than expect KR, and taking varying measure to correct the issue with little result... I am hesitant to swap the plugs now.

Quote:
I’m still running E30 now and my KR is still jumping up to +5.99 under normal acceleration but drops down the into the (-) numbers as soon as I give it more throttle.
This is what I am seeing in my data log as well, running good 93 octane. Are you logging from a device and I assume you are using the 'Fusion Sport' configuration provided by Torrie?

I am going to return to my stock tune and do a WOT test to see if I get the same spikes in KR. It sounds like you and @BWood21 have performed all recommended steps from Torrie and still are facing higher than normal KR. I know the alternative is to tune around this but I know it is not recommended. Has Torrie offered any next steps? Or is this getting to "it is what it is.." Positive KR (especially during WOT) is no good, and I wanted to get more performance out of my vehicle but not cause problems in the process.
jdgesmlls is online now  
post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2019, 12:56 AM
Member
 
VelocityBrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 99
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hootushead View Post
I’m still running E30 now and my KR is still jumping up to +5.99 under normal acceleration but drops down the into the (-) numbers as soon as I give it more throttle.
There's the answer to your woes. Never stop accelerating. Boom. You owe me a beer.

2019 Velocity Brew Fusion Sport
Steeda Cold Air
Borla S-Type mufflers w/Magnaflow x-pipe
Turbosmart Dual Port BOV
UP FMIC (Garrett core)
Steeda Hood Struts
Illuminated FUSION Door Sill plates
Steeda Oil Separator
Chrome delete, carbon fiber wrapped
RB Mud flaps
Savanini shift paddle extenstions
Unleashed Tune

To be installed: Reische 170* Tstat
VelocityBrew is offline  
post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2019, 01:39 AM
Member
 
VelocityBrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 99
Garage
On a serious note, what is the KR/timing listed as when datalogging it? I was going to look for the obvious but some of them are pretty cryptic. (And the tuners in my car :P)

2019 Velocity Brew Fusion Sport
Steeda Cold Air
Borla S-Type mufflers w/Magnaflow x-pipe
Turbosmart Dual Port BOV
UP FMIC (Garrett core)
Steeda Hood Struts
Illuminated FUSION Door Sill plates
Steeda Oil Separator
Chrome delete, carbon fiber wrapped
RB Mud flaps
Savanini shift paddle extenstions
Unleashed Tune

To be installed: Reische 170* Tstat
VelocityBrew is offline  
post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2019, 07:39 AM
Junior Member
 
jdgesmlls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelocityBrew View Post
On a serious note, what is the KR/timing listed as when datalogging it? I was going to look for the obvious but some of them are pretty cryptic. (And the tuners in my car :P)
If you are using the 'Fusion Sport' configuration provided by Torrie, it is the 'knock Sensor' item. I have been isolating 'accel pedal position D', 'rpm', and 'knock Sensor' on the graph to get an idea of KR at various acceleration levels. You should see what equates to a "step down" in the graph for 'knock Sensor' when you get on the throttle, and negative values are best. If you see levels > 2 at higher throttle/RPMs, this is worth noting. Also the Octane Adjust Ratio value (OAR) value is worth noting. Members that are running higher octane fuel (E30, E40 etc.) have reported a max value of -0.96(best) on the FFS. My value changed from -0.01 to -0.31 since switching to premium 93 octane fuel. The OAR value also affects KR/timing and it is a "leaning" system based on fuel quality and duration. I'd expect this to continue moving to a higher negative number as I continue to use premium fuel and the system adapts to it. I am not sure how long it takes the system to "learn" this.

I found this article helpful when trying to understand KR/timing with EcoBoost engines. The system is quite complex, and this article is specific to the 4 cylinder EcoBoost.

Blog : How the Knock Detection System Works in the Ecoboost : Stratified Automotive Controls
VelocityBrew likes this.
jdgesmlls is online now  
post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2019, 10:20 AM
Junior Member
 
jdgesmlls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 20
I returned to stock and did a short data log this morning using the "Fusion Sport" configuration from Torrie. My 'knock Sensor' value shows 0 across the board (min/max). It doesn't look like it reads the value correctly on the stock tune with the 'Fusion Sport' configuration (which probably makes sense, as it wasn't intended for the stock tune).

I will try to do another data log with the "Ford 08 or newer GAS" configuration and see if that gets any KR values.
VelocityBrew likes this.
jdgesmlls is online now  
post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2019, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 64
I’m using the only datalog configuration he sent me. It’s not named “fusion sport” but I assume It’s the same thing. It’s name is the same string of letters as the cars “ECM Strategy”.

I’ve never actually seen a datalog from my car. They go wireless from my SCT BDX to my email then I forward the file to Torrie.

I’ve just been watching “knock sensor” and “OAR” live with my BDX and keeping an eye on the minimum/maximum values it stores.

I have seen the “step down” you described with the KR. With the cruise control on, going up a slight hill, it’ll jump up to 5.99 then steadily step back down .5*KR at a time back down to 0*. It never gets below 0* on its own in cruise but, if I punch the accelerator it’ll immediately skip down into (-) numbers.

My OAR has never gotten lower -0.96. It always resets to 0 when I load a new tune and takes 1.5-2.5 tanks of gas to work back down to -0.96.
Hootushead is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the 2017 Ford Fusion V6 Sport Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome